Retailers - what would make you order from an Independent publisher?

[Harry Markos]

This one is for our esteemed retailers here in the UK.
There are many Indy publishers here trying to make a go of things in this tough and currently brutal business. Diamond's recent increase of the benchmark to $2500, which has to be met before they will distribute a book amounts to 1750 books with a $3.50 cover price. In these turbulent times that is a tough mark to make for the Indies, indeed some of the better known publishers will struggle to attain those numbers. It also means that Diamond will scrutinize new books more thoroughly and can turn them down and not solicit them at all. Some will say that is a good thing, in terms of business some will agree with that with the argument that it will increase the standards. Others will say that titles such as Mouse Guard, Bone and 30 Days of Night will never make it now and so the talent pool shrinks and potential new stars in the making will now never surface.
Part of the problem is persuading retailers, again in these tough times, to order something from an Indy publisher just because that publisher thinks it is good. Does it make sense for the retailer to risk some of his/her well-earned cash on an unknown? Again, the camps are divided.
Many are of the opinion that without new talent and new projects coming on to the market place is a dangerous path to take and signifies the beginning of the end for the format.
What I, as an Indy publisher, and many others are keen to find out is this - what would it take for you to order from an Indy publisher?
And would you do so only from Diamond, or would you consider ordering from Haven or from the publisher direct?
From our point of view there are many things that we can do, including advance previews, signings, etc etc, but it is your thoughts that count here so please contribute and be as brutal as you think is necessary in order for us to help you.

[David Wright]

Speaking as someone who is about to open his own comics/games shop in Kirkcaldy, Scotland you must of course appreciate that I'm very much new to all of this...

What would an Indy publisher have to do to get me to stock their products? I think the answer is really down to knowledge of that publisher on the part of the retailer and their customers. I know that everything costs money and in the current climate certain things may be impossible for a publisher/retailer/consumer.

If an Indy publisher were to produce a sampler like the one that Red 5 Comics recently produced that would be a good start. It'd definitely get my attention much more effectively than a section in Previews. It would be further effective if the sampler was Issue 0 material for a title or indeed multiple titles that I could then give away to customers or spotlight in the shop as a intro issue.
With respect to the distribution chain part, I really don't care where I get them from just so long as I get them at a price I can afford, schedules are met etc. Using Diamond is a necessity, if alternatives (especially in the UK) are available then I'm more than happy to look at those.
Signings are a definite plus and it's something I want to be doing in my shop on a regular basis. Again I'm new to all this and so don't really understand how signings work (things like expenses I mean) but it'd be great for a publisher or creator to promote that they're available for signings and what the process is to achieve that.

I'm going to HIEX http://www.hi-ex.co.uk/ in Inverness in 2 weeks and plan on discussing some of these things with creators and others in general as part of my "education". I look forward to input from others ;)

[Steve Causer]

From a UK retailers point of view there are a number of ways to reply to this.

1) It is our customers that we have to think about rather than persuading retailers to take a risk on titles. I always think this gets lost in these debates. Any retailer would be mad not to look at servicing their customers. NOW this is a plus towards indies if the retailer can interest their customers.

In our experience, indies only sell when they have been read and can be talked about to customers. The biggest issue is time frame as by the time previews comes in and we get the chance to look through and decide what titles are to be pushed, there is not always time to do a massive amount of in store marketing for said titles...especially as pushing an indie title may result in a handful of people picking it up, versus a new Marvel title where you can get 30/40 people sign up for it. This leads to:

2) Return on investment. Afterall asking retailers to buy said indie titles is an investment on their part as they have to invest the time and effort to try and sell them into their customers. When titles from the main publishers are easier to sell and you can get many more easily to add it to their pull list, there is a higher return on investment in looking at the main publisher titles.

3) Shelf space is something we look at all the time and look at making sure what we have on the shelves is selling and we don't have wasted areas in the shop. We have recently stripped back on indie titles. We still buy them but less and less (I myself still order lots in and then recommend ones that are good).

4) Going direct and ordering from Publishers would be fine as long as the terms are right. As with ordering through Diamond indie titles will not be ordered in high quantities as the risk of not selling could be high.

5) Having some way to properly preview books would be a help, but I am not sure how that could be best done. We are always doing new things to look at promoting books and would welcome and new ideas.

To wrap up my initial thoughts on all of this. We would order indie titles if we felt they were good enough, and do take a judgement based on simple previews. Like most things if there was a way to promote indie books in a more creative way then this would help and we would welcome it.

[Harry Markos]

Thanks for your comments Steve. I agree with you in most cases and am basically trying to source some new fresh ideas for my company so that we can make our mark with the retailers. You are quite right in pointing out the limitations with regard to Diamond and the time-frames involved. From the time we solicit the books to them to the shipping date is five months, and a lot can happen in that time.

If we could find a viable and cost-effective way of showing retailers our books before they make their monthly orders I am positive that we can convince them to order from us. One way is to send you PDF's of entire issues that are solicited in Previews which you could review and judge for yourself whether it will sell.
Another way is to send you samples of previously released material which you could review and then order from us if you deemed it suitable, maybe after allowing your customers to view them. We are open to any and all suggestions.

We are also more than happy to deal with retailers direct and give a better discount than you'd get from Diamond.

Let me know if you'd like to discuss it further and hopefully we can work on a cunning plan!

Thanks again
Harry

[Steve Causer]

Harry

Would love to and there is a cunning plan...jusy have not got all the cunning right at the moment.

Replying to your ideas...PDFs of the issues would be great as would anything that shows the comics so we can see them.

My biggest issue and I am being honest with my answers. We don't have the time to spend loads of times reviewing lots of books...as and I have just posted this on the other thread on here...I can sell a Marvel or DC title in much larger quantities then I probably would ever sell one of your titles (again being honest)...with a lot less effort.

If I put my business head on which makes better sense??!!!

This is where that cunning plan falls down or rather where my focus in on the cunning plan...the way to make it easy for retailers and indeed customers to get an impact of a new indie book...the problem is everything is easy to get and everything is wanted quickly (the net means people get info quickly but it has to make an impact)...there has to be a creative way to make that impact...

Love to bounce some ideas around at some point

[Harry Markos]

I can see your point Steve and understand the time constraints etc, but I've been to shops where the guys behind the counter really know their stuff and frequently point out new titles to customers who come in for a browse or to pick up their regular orders. They made time to look at new offerings and it paid dividends.
That's how I picked up titles like 30 Days of Night when it came out, and some of the com.X titles which did really well. If it wasn't for the retailers enthusiasm and knowledge of those books I would never had gotten to read them.

That is in no way disparaging to retailers out there because times weren't so tough back then and the economy was a hell of lot better. Things are different now!
I just can't think of any other way to get retailers to check out Indy books, can you? If you don't think you'll find the time to look at a PDF of a book for free then what chance do we have of offering something that you will review and possible like? If we sent you a free book will you not review that either?

My thinking is that there is a real need for Indy books. Sure, there may be too many at this time but there's some exceptional titles out there that have gone on to do very well. If Marvel and DC know that there is no competition at all then they will simply relax and become complacent. As in every business competition is crucial, you only need to look at the lack of competition in the distribution business to realise just how complacent things can become.

[Steve Causer]

Harry

Don't get me wrong what you are saying is happening...the 30 days of night example is a good one through as it is read and easy to push and recommend…. this is what I am trying to say.

Our guys know their stuff (don't want to give the feeling our shops doesn't...lol) that is a given...but what we are talking about here is not knowing the stuff isn't it ...so yes PDF review titles my simply be the way....but what I am saying is there are hundreds of new indie titles they are the ones that we are looking at, Image is a great example many of these are nothing special (I like them MR Image :)..) but yet in our store for example we find do not sell unless we have read them, there is no easy way to push these before they come out (we constantly look at different ways to push titles and we have a whole new approach to marketing) , so time and time again if they do not sell then when reviewing spending and comics, which get cut???...and sometimes it is easier to recommend 30 days of night as it will have been read or at least the idea behind it is known and info is found easily on it.

Com X is another great example they took the time to market their books looked at things a bit differently. When the new Radical books came out we did great with these but they did their online push etc and customers picked up on it.

THE BOTH CREATED THAT BUZZ!!!

When we first opened there was three of us spending more time in the store (2 owners and manager)..having all of us in most of the time we could put something in front of a customer and they would buy it..every retailer has it challenges on a day to day and as they look to grow their customer base, keep an eye on the current climate (price increases, less money in people’s pockets, customers getting laid off etc), the easier you can make something the easier it is for them to take the time, the risk etc on new books.

Again I kind of was aiming more at the real indie books...sorry I guess I am not sure how you fit into this....:)

I am with you on the indie books I love them and read more and more indie titles myself...and the competition is great..it is one of the reasons we set up our printing company to help the smaller creators with affordable printing.

IT IS THE BUZZ!!!....that I think is needed...not that you and others don't generate that but keeping the momentum going and really standing out...

I get asked to publish books almost on a weekly basis and am still interested but sales always put me off as it can be a lot of effort for not always a great immediate return...(and I have loads of other things that we are working on)...all of this, what ever I say I guess I am really chucking it out there to try and get the brain pumping enough to see if something cracks, something can be suddenly discovered that may be a "eureka" moment....

You see on a flip side...we had a small creator owned zombie book that we got from Bristol one year and it flew out but we got behind it as a shop...yes it was in the middle of the zombie craze so perfect timing but we read it and liked it.

Okay if we were sent PDF previews I would prefer to look at how to get these to customers easily to read..why as coming back to my previous post as much as we do our stuff...time will always play a factor...and the mass communication always works better than relying on the one to one ...not all the time and you need both...but providing a customer benefit / perk that allows them sight of such things may be a way to market it as really most things are simply perception and if the perception is positive towards something then that buzz appears.

If for example we set up an online area where you posted the PDF's too suddenly it becomes a local benefit...a local little secret they are getting...this is going somewhere..

[andrew wildman]

This is all really interesting and sits well along Andrew's 'New Distribution Model' discussion.
Only a couple of things to contribute here;
The comment about satisfying/catering for the customer is spot on. They are the ones who end up with the product. Its getting them aware that it is there and that it would be something they are interested in is the key.
The other thing that is ALWAYS the big question is, Who takes the risk? Unless there are massive funds available for promotion etc the risk has to lie somewhere. The customer will occasionally take a risk on a purchase but will be lost as a customer if their risk doesnt pay off. The retailer currently takes the risk as the product is not returnable. The Publisher takes some risk but in the old model (sale or return) they used to take all the risk. that is the model thats lost and with current technology allowing anyone to publish for little investment its harder for publishers to take risk and they feel that there should be a way for them to not have to.
I would imagine that history would prove that the successes are the ones where word of mouth from reader to reader created the demand. Perhaps what is missing then is a platform for having titles properly assessed. Consider how you decide to buy a book (proper book, not comic ;-) ) or decide to go see a movie. I would imagine its either coz your mates tell you 'you must' or because you heard/read a review that inspired you. Maybe thats the 'missing' and the place to start looking at what would be possible.

W!LDMAN

[Steve Causer]

Hey Andrew...the missing bit is the previewing part...how this happens is the key.

The risk at the minute is with the retailer. I am not sure as to how many people (customers) fully understand the strange beast that comic retailing is ....no other shop, no other retail chain and I would guess that most retail business men would laugh at the comic shop model...for giving credit in the way that it does.

This is in some ways where the issue is, in some ways it can be a benefit and obviously the order in advance system is to help with this.

The interesting time scale is when do you market your book? I remember going through this when I was a publisher. When it is in previews? YES obviosuly, but then when it comes out yes again.

This is the same with retailers...you look to push comics to customers so they order and so limit the risk when ordering titles, this is when it is in previews.

You then put the order in. If you are taking a risk on a title you then have to put a system in place to ensure that you keep pushing that title and then once it actually arrives you push it as well. Mutiply this with a dozen or more books in each previews, then having to do two/three months as the same time.

Getting people to order from previews / remembering to push last months and dealing with the comics you have taken a risk on..that is a lot of titles to remember and market to customers. The easier it is the more appealing is....!!! This can be why indies don't get too much of a mention at times.